“Odin’s men rushed forwards without armour, were as mad as dogs or wolves, bit their shields, and were strong as bears or wild oxen, and killed people at a blow, but neither fire nor iron told upon them.
You are so right! But I think a lot of women unconsciously take in that they're supposed to find such men appealing. A study was done of what types of men women found attractive, and the majority found slim, dark men very handsome. These puffed-up, overblown, weight lifter types always seem to me to be the type some gay men prefer (thinking leather scene here), but they are now marketed to women. Look at the men arrested for killing their female companions (and often their own children); many of them look like thugs.
I think the pop culture emphasis on brutality is a form of over-compensation. Most men spend their lives (from a very early age) in one appalling institution after another, where discipline is maintained through capricious attacks, collective punishments and humiliation. At some point in the process, they're presented with heroes who are too nasty to be messed with. Once the patterns are established, it's not easy to break that conditioning.
And I agree with you on adopting or infusing "Our Higher Angels" To The Task.
Of course, with that said, when I am "forced-to-listen," well...not really forced, but I listen out-of & over-the "concerns of the day," & make witness to moon-faced, baby-skinned Dems yammer-on, with smiles all-too-pleasantville, & of course of course Robert-Ruled, I tend to think of so-called violence, as not always carrying a shield.
I could make an argument the American male has been emasculated.
A few of us are trying to redefine the conversation. For a long time all of the focus of those who want change has been on treating masculinity as toxic. Many men have internalized that. If we want to change society we need more, a lot more, tonic masculinity.
Years ago Starhawk listed the traits that radical feminists wanted men to have, and they were strong and positive (fierceness, NOT violence, was one I remember). But masculinist culture is a culture of violence and conformity very few men have the inner strength to resist. I've thought about my partner and my sisters' husbands, and they are / were all weak men with no spiritual core.
"But masculinist culture is a culture of violence and conformity very few men have the inner strength to resist."
There is much that is celebrated about masculine culture that is not healthy. There is some that is not healthy and not celebrated. There is some that is healthy and also celebrated. There is much that is healthy and not celebrated. Some men and women have been in the habit of denigrating all of it. Having read Starhawk's Fifth Sacred Thing, I am not inclined to disagree with her necessarily, but my ideal in the midwest is different than California.
I am masculine, but not very violent and not much of a conformist.
I used to teach my high school junior boys that there was a third option in addition to wimp or barbarian. A gentleman, a knight. Where masculine strength is used to defend the weak.
Interesting this comes up now. I was just thinking about the "everyone" thing that seems to be happening. My line of thought was sparked by a comment made on another 'Stack a few days back.
"It seems everyone has a bit of Rainman in them"
My husband reads "Everyone has tics". The podcast I listened to last night "Everyone has an addiction to something".
These aren't helpful comments. The comment on Rainman was in reply to the ridiculously broad autism spectrum...also not helpful.
"Everyone" being this way or that really deflects from actual pathology, and minimizes it.
Are all men berserk? I don't think so, although they may play it on television. I do think we are in for a few years of bizarre behaviours due, in part, to the weirdness of the past three years piled on to increasing electronic isolation which followed a trend of diminishing healthy masculinity
Oh, the media uses the word everyone constantly because they don't recognize the existence of anyone outside themselves! I don't have tics (my guess is you don't either). I do not have a bit of Rainman in me though I identified with some of what Temple Grandin said about herself many years ago in the New Yorker. Not everyone has an addiction, amazingly!
Yes. Many men have lost their way for many reasons.
For example (and unfortunately I cannot cite this), some years back, someone tried to do a study on the effects of pornography on young men. Among 14 year-olds, they couldn't find a control group. So I guess that's another "everyone"!
I'm a fan of Westerns, not all but quite a few. After realizing that old sitcoms were often sermonettes, I began to realize many Westerns were sermons directed at men about how to behave (I don't know how well they took!). Stand up for truth and justice even if you're the only one to do so. Don't lie and cheat or shoot people in the back. Don't get involved with women simply on the basis of lust, especially when she makes it clear she is not interested in you. [On the latter topic, a friend wrote her thesis on femmes fatal in movies -- I certainly took her point about such women being painted as evil -- but then I realized Westerns and even some film noir were making the point that women who had learned that money was the only thing worth having were not women a man should marry for a happy life.]
Mickey's essay points out the lessons boys and men now receive, and they are NOT sermons.
Recently watched A Good Day for a Hanging and it was definitely a sermon about standing alone for the truth.
And then of course there's the idea that Westerns are our version of Greek theatre, filled with warnings about hubris, greed, etc. A common theme I've noticed is that men who encourage their sons to be arrogant and violent often lose their sons because someone didn't stand still for being beaten or murdered.
Yes, but the real dangerous men are billionaires like Gates, Bezos, Schwab. None of whom would find himself anywhere near physical danger.
Robert Bly (RIP) wrote Iron Man on this very issue. I don't pretend to know how men react to that book, but it definitely resonated with me as to the loss of a certain kind of strong masculinity.
As an aside, the Maenads/Bacchantes, women who were part of a Dionysis cult, would go on trance fueled rampages where they'd tear apart anyone they came across, human or non-human. the modern day idea of women really comes from the Victorian age, and, before that, the witch hunts (see Silvia Federici). Women were brutally forced into a passive role. That trauma, I think, still is with us.
Yep, the Parasite Class™ manipulates "regular" men into performing a distorted form of manhood so that they (the predators) look more civilized in their suits and ties.
You are so right! But I think a lot of women unconsciously take in that they're supposed to find such men appealing. A study was done of what types of men women found attractive, and the majority found slim, dark men very handsome. These puffed-up, overblown, weight lifter types always seem to me to be the type some gay men prefer (thinking leather scene here), but they are now marketed to women. Look at the men arrested for killing their female companions (and often their own children); many of them look like thugs.
indeed. I like the darker types too lol. But right now I have sworn off men and have a dog
Yes, let's.
I harvest and split my own firewood by hand while listening to The Raging Dissident.
https://rumble.com/v28l724--ragecast-301-look-up.html
We need to coddle and channel our Righteous Indignation appropriately.
dang thanks wrcu2, chop chop....from Poortland OR
And it's delightful to picture evil heads on that splitting stump!
I think the pop culture emphasis on brutality is a form of over-compensation. Most men spend their lives (from a very early age) in one appalling institution after another, where discipline is maintained through capricious attacks, collective punishments and humiliation. At some point in the process, they're presented with heroes who are too nasty to be messed with. Once the patterns are established, it's not easy to break that conditioning.
Indeed...these "heroes" are set up to be virtually irrresistible.
It's an effective way to create cannon-fodder.
And the DoD is very involved in Hollywood, both movies and television.
Valuable Insights Mickey.
No Man really wants to be violent.
And I agree with you on adopting or infusing "Our Higher Angels" To The Task.
Of course, with that said, when I am "forced-to-listen," well...not really forced, but I listen out-of & over-the "concerns of the day," & make witness to moon-faced, baby-skinned Dems yammer-on, with smiles all-too-pleasantville, & of course of course Robert-Ruled, I tend to think of so-called violence, as not always carrying a shield.
IMHO.
I hear you, Paul. There are so many earthly reasons to feel righteous rage.
I realize Mick, that in This Specific Piece, you were only covering/addressing one side of the envelope.
Seeing a dude sans shirt or hair shirt or whatever coming at you crazy eyed, is a pretty easy call.
What is most troubling & perhaps sinister, is the paunchy milqutoast, with soft calming intoned hypnotic words of non-soothing.
I am sure your are well acquainted, in Our Political Atmosphere.
I could make an argument the American male has been emasculated.
A few of us are trying to redefine the conversation. For a long time all of the focus of those who want change has been on treating masculinity as toxic. Many men have internalized that. If we want to change society we need more, a lot more, tonic masculinity.
https://thirdparadigm.substack.com/p/tonic-masculinity-and-the-mad-hatter
Years ago Starhawk listed the traits that radical feminists wanted men to have, and they were strong and positive (fierceness, NOT violence, was one I remember). But masculinist culture is a culture of violence and conformity very few men have the inner strength to resist. I've thought about my partner and my sisters' husbands, and they are / were all weak men with no spiritual core.
"But masculinist culture is a culture of violence and conformity very few men have the inner strength to resist."
There is much that is celebrated about masculine culture that is not healthy. There is some that is not healthy and not celebrated. There is some that is healthy and also celebrated. There is much that is healthy and not celebrated. Some men and women have been in the habit of denigrating all of it. Having read Starhawk's Fifth Sacred Thing, I am not inclined to disagree with her necessarily, but my ideal in the midwest is different than California.
I am masculine, but not very violent and not much of a conformist.
I used to teach my high school junior boys that there was a third option in addition to wimp or barbarian. A gentleman, a knight. Where masculine strength is used to defend the weak.
Amen.
Interesting this comes up now. I was just thinking about the "everyone" thing that seems to be happening. My line of thought was sparked by a comment made on another 'Stack a few days back.
"It seems everyone has a bit of Rainman in them"
My husband reads "Everyone has tics". The podcast I listened to last night "Everyone has an addiction to something".
These aren't helpful comments. The comment on Rainman was in reply to the ridiculously broad autism spectrum...also not helpful.
"Everyone" being this way or that really deflects from actual pathology, and minimizes it.
Are all men berserk? I don't think so, although they may play it on television. I do think we are in for a few years of bizarre behaviours due, in part, to the weirdness of the past three years piled on to increasing electronic isolation which followed a trend of diminishing healthy masculinity
I hear you, Jaye, and I was not aiming to add to the "everyone" vibe. That said, biolent crime statistics tell a story of misguided masculinity.
Oh, the media uses the word everyone constantly because they don't recognize the existence of anyone outside themselves! I don't have tics (my guess is you don't either). I do not have a bit of Rainman in me though I identified with some of what Temple Grandin said about herself many years ago in the New Yorker. Not everyone has an addiction, amazingly!
I agree. I think it's part of the normalization of pathology
And the media minions' utter incomprehension that all people are not just like them.
Yes. Many men have lost their way for many reasons.
For example (and unfortunately I cannot cite this), some years back, someone tried to do a study on the effects of pornography on young men. Among 14 year-olds, they couldn't find a control group. So I guess that's another "everyone"!
Do we even know what our baseline is?
Sorry. Rambling. I appreciate the opportunity
You have nothing to apologize, Jaye! Your thoughts are welcome here.
I'm a fan of Westerns, not all but quite a few. After realizing that old sitcoms were often sermonettes, I began to realize many Westerns were sermons directed at men about how to behave (I don't know how well they took!). Stand up for truth and justice even if you're the only one to do so. Don't lie and cheat or shoot people in the back. Don't get involved with women simply on the basis of lust, especially when she makes it clear she is not interested in you. [On the latter topic, a friend wrote her thesis on femmes fatal in movies -- I certainly took her point about such women being painted as evil -- but then I realized Westerns and even some film noir were making the point that women who had learned that money was the only thing worth having were not women a man should marry for a happy life.]
Mickey's essay points out the lessons boys and men now receive, and they are NOT sermons.
I hadn't thought about Westerns in this way but, as I ponder your comment, I feel in agreement!
Recently watched A Good Day for a Hanging and it was definitely a sermon about standing alone for the truth.
And then of course there's the idea that Westerns are our version of Greek theatre, filled with warnings about hubris, greed, etc. A common theme I've noticed is that men who encourage their sons to be arrogant and violent often lose their sons because someone didn't stand still for being beaten or murdered.
Yes, but the real dangerous men are billionaires like Gates, Bezos, Schwab. None of whom would find himself anywhere near physical danger.
Robert Bly (RIP) wrote Iron Man on this very issue. I don't pretend to know how men react to that book, but it definitely resonated with me as to the loss of a certain kind of strong masculinity.
As an aside, the Maenads/Bacchantes, women who were part of a Dionysis cult, would go on trance fueled rampages where they'd tear apart anyone they came across, human or non-human. the modern day idea of women really comes from the Victorian age, and, before that, the witch hunts (see Silvia Federici). Women were brutally forced into a passive role. That trauma, I think, still is with us.
Yep, the Parasite Class™ manipulates "regular" men into performing a distorted form of manhood so that they (the predators) look more civilized in their suits and ties.
Hi, Mickey, I wanted to send you this link. Do not open unless you're feeling particularly strong, it almost makes period fetishism look mild.
https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/prostitution-pregnancy-pornography-exploitation-consent-a7697536.html
Thanks, Susan. I only looked at the article's title for now but will check it out tomorrow.
Just read it. I'm not stunned but I am speechless.