(What follows, as well as what is contained in these parentheses, are expressions of my current judgement. My mind may yet change, despite my current confidence. If that happens, either I am wrong now or I'll be wrong then, don't you agree? Or am I not even making sense?)
Warning: possible devastating red pill follows.
The so-called free-will defence is a travesty. That the supposed maximally powerful uncreated creator of everything else even IMAGINED pain, suffering, misery, discomfort, or displeasure of any kind alone makes him/her/it a sadistic monster. NOTHING necessitates unpleasant experience such that even a maximally powerful being is powerless against it. So whatever persons—entities with wills—there are, as long as there is even the slightest discomfort, they have failed to demonstrate definitively that they can—let alone want to or will—permanently relieve those who are suffering.
That said, loving everyone, even one's enemies, is, I'm convinced, the best strategy for maximizing one's quality of life.
What's good about “free will“? If it makes it possible to choose what will hurt it's no good at all!
You seem to imply that there is something bad about having a good life unless it is the result of choices that, had they been different, would have been followed by adversity. But quite to the contrary; that the quality of one's future life is dependent on making the “right“ or “good” choices is torment enough in itself. Only if my future is equally blissful—devoid of all displeasure—regardless of the choices I make is having a will not a bad thing.
I’ve been where you are. Gnosticism is a long dark hopeless road. I was raised Catholic but went searching and ended up Gnostic- it checked all the boxes. One dismal day I realized I needed hope. I could not survive without hope. And on a beautiful fall day in the Appalachian mountains I found hope. It was tentative at first but the shift had happened and there was no going back. As J.A. Campbell said, “when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.” I feel our present circumstances are dire, the very fate of humanity is at risk. We must fight for humanity and for each other. Our gods have become technology and convenience. We NEED human contact! The rollout of Covid and the internet has profoundly changed how younger generations interact. Entire lives are lived on devices with no human contact whatsoever. My brother even has “ virtual” therapy. What a joke! Shakes someone’s hand, give someone a hug. We are in this together. And pray. Prayer changes things. Thank you, Mickey. And Tessa Fights Robots has an excellent article about this ancient battle.
My prayers never changed anything that couldn't be explained otherwise. And those times praying seemed to work were trivial (finding lost items) and a tiny minority.
I find hope only in the openness of the future and hence the possibility that it will get brighter.
God created the perfect place. Eden became no more after free will was utilized. Adam and Eve knew what was right. God told them what not to do and they walked in the cool of the day with Him. They knew. They chose disobedience. Then evil came into the world. The world is saved by Jesus Christ from our inner nature to disobey God. The only other perfect place is Heaven. You must choose Jesus to get into Heaven. He said so Himself. The only question left is who do you say Jesus is?
When transgressors (insert any dirty politician, malignant narcissist, post Covid rioter/looter/lawbreaker who is given a pass, corporate or schoolyard bully, and be sure to include the Turkish government) do not ask for forgiveness, repent or atone, but on the contrary enjoy the fruits of their heinous crimes — and from lack of punishment become emboldened to repeat their crimes, granting forgiveness is the last thing victims should do. Forgiveness is overrated when misused and can even put the forgiver in peril.
Forgiveness should not imply docility. Forgiveness is in the heart. I can forgive but fight for what’s right at the same time. God forgave us our sins (that is disobeying the Creator) through the blood of Jesus Christ thus granting us eternal life with Him if we believe in what he tells us in the Bible about Jesus, God’s Son. If we don’t forgive in our hearts, God will not forgive us (Matthew).
When Jesus drove the money changers from the temple, he was not practicing forgiveness. If forgiveness is what is expected in every instance, many practicing Christians will be turned away from the gates of Heaven.
I agree, that was the action of a just God. God hates sin but loves sinners. Jesus is perfect so he doesn’t harbor unforgiveness. On the cross he said forgive them for they know not what they do. Resentment hurts the holder way more than the giver.
To each his own. Many do not hold malice in their hearts or commit crimes because they have been wronged but feel very empowered in distancing themselves from the source of their miseries. One may say “God go with the transgressors,” but choose to have nothing more to do with that entiry and close the chapter.
Forgiveness is in my opinion extremely personal; you don’t need to tell someone they’re forgiven you forgive in your heart. It may take a daily practise of years or a lifetime; life is filled with the pain of being wronged and disappointed by others; but ultimately forgiveness is about freeing yourself from heaviness that causes more misery. I don’t think anyone else needs to know about it, least of all the people you are forgiving. The main benefactor is you.
That aspect is in place for many people. It is misleading and damaging for institutions, invested actors and the like to put victimizer and victim in a room together and preach reconciliation as if both are equally guilty. And that is what we are seeing around the world under the guise of conflict resolution and restorative justice. Many people have grown to accept that the only justice they may ever see is in the afterlife.
Forgiveness really has nothing to do with perpetrators. It has everything to do with the injured party.
Angels rejoice when a lost soul is redeemed. God supplies the tools (such as someone's wise counsel and firgiveness), for a soul to convert, but ultimately the sinner has to make that choice
What injured parties do to comfort themselves is their personal choice. From a political standpoint, malignant powers rely on and even demand forgiveness to justify their acts of impunity. This mindful demoralization will not advance the Christian forgiveness movement.
Really lovely, Mickie, yes a struggle…commanded to love, it’s not really free is it? both good and bad options for us to choose~~~I for years was in a pers Ch pry group and monthly read pages and pages of courage under horrific struggles. And so stunning, they choose faithfulness. Shot at bus stops, blown up in Sunday Easter service. The last member of the Boka Haram attack, Leah has had her second baby because she won’t give up her faith to leave the terrorist compound. ~~~ now I think of the group of teens who kicked and beat on the three marines on a California beach this weekend, Memorial Day!! What parents allow such arrogance and brattiness, words fail. Let’s give them a couple of weeks carrying bedpans and holding hands of wounded service members, blinded, without a leg or arm, in a few military trauma centers. Fighting to allow them the freedom to be a jerk. The days of “thank you ma’am,” “Let me help you with that, sir”…..?? hard to stomach, in 15? years these folks will be joining the management? teams, or in line, free to bash in your head for mixed up order at take out……Forget that you don’t know how to use an apostrophe……amen and amen
You so eloquently stated all that is in my heart. These past three years have brought me back to my faith as I see nothing else to solve humanity’s dilemma but a return to Jesus’ Way. I believe the light of his truth must be rekindled in the hearts of each of us who have been awakened. He tells us we are the salt of the earth and through His Way, with ears to hear and eyes to see, we will create heaven on earth. The Lord’s Prayer is our daily tool to walk with Him and be his disciples so that the world will “know Him”. I discovered and now use the six petals of the rose, as designed in the center of the labyrinth of Chartre Cathedral, as my daily walk with him. This was built by Jesus’ and Mary’s earliest followers in France, after she escaped Jerusalem following his ascension. The politics of that time were as tenuous as they are today; our struggle is nothing new. The Lord’s Prayer a perfect meditation for hearing and seeing and receiving His guidance. Remember, salt is not sweet, but powerful and has many uses. We are not naive in believing in God, but, rather, powerful, like salt. We are not being passive in prayer, but calling on the greatest force of the universe. And if we work together, bound by God’s powerful promises, we are string like salt, and our collective, ever-intensifying light will expose the darkness of evil. Then together, with the indefensible strength of the creator of this world, we can send evil back to its pit of hell. Obviously, God can do this anytime he wants, but he wants us to rejoin him in our collective divinity as he intended for us to be with him. Yet he gives us the free will to choose to reign with him or continue to suffer. It’s that simple. I know it’s our only hope; just look at the state of humanity. We, alone as mere humans, think we’re smart enough, but the evidence of our world today, proves the contrary. We do not have the power, in ourselves alone, to change this course. Once we open our hearts and the eyes and ears of others we will all realize it’s the only Way to accomplish heaven on earth. It is truly our salvation. Thank you Mickey!
What if billions eventually followed some version of the roadmap laid out in the Sermon on the Mount?
this is not just Christian, this is the golden rule and is preached by all wise men and women all over. Unfortunately, many people want others to follow it, but not themselves. They want to convert everyone to their own version of the truth, and I think that is where it all goes wrong. What I consider true religion is between the One and My Self, and no one enters that sacred place. But many don't see it that way... and want to convert me to a stone building where God probably never enters.
Thanks for the reminder, Mickey! I got sober just a day over nine years ago, and I had to deprogram from a lot of evangelical indoctrination. One of the best ways that I did that was reading Emmitt Fox’s Sermon on the Mount. It helped me to understand what was actually being taught in that profound section of the Bible. For anyone else struggling with understanding the message, I can’t recommend that book enough.
(What follows, as well as what is contained in these parentheses, are expressions of my current judgement. My mind may yet change, despite my current confidence. If that happens, either I am wrong now or I'll be wrong then, don't you agree? Or am I not even making sense?)
Warning: possible devastating red pill follows.
The so-called free-will defence is a travesty. That the supposed maximally powerful uncreated creator of everything else even IMAGINED pain, suffering, misery, discomfort, or displeasure of any kind alone makes him/her/it a sadistic monster. NOTHING necessitates unpleasant experience such that even a maximally powerful being is powerless against it. So whatever persons—entities with wills—there are, as long as there is even the slightest discomfort, they have failed to demonstrate definitively that they can—let alone want to or will—permanently relieve those who are suffering.
That said, loving everyone, even one's enemies, is, I'm convinced, the best strategy for maximizing one's quality of life.
God is not powerless against evil, but he permits it because to do otherwise would remove the choices that are necessary for us to have free will.
How can you choose to love, if to love is the only available option?
What's good about “free will“? If it makes it possible to choose what will hurt it's no good at all!
You seem to imply that there is something bad about having a good life unless it is the result of choices that, had they been different, would have been followed by adversity. But quite to the contrary; that the quality of one's future life is dependent on making the “right“ or “good” choices is torment enough in itself. Only if my future is equally blissful—devoid of all displeasure—regardless of the choices I make is having a will not a bad thing.
I’ve been where you are. Gnosticism is a long dark hopeless road. I was raised Catholic but went searching and ended up Gnostic- it checked all the boxes. One dismal day I realized I needed hope. I could not survive without hope. And on a beautiful fall day in the Appalachian mountains I found hope. It was tentative at first but the shift had happened and there was no going back. As J.A. Campbell said, “when you change the way you look at things, the things you look at change.” I feel our present circumstances are dire, the very fate of humanity is at risk. We must fight for humanity and for each other. Our gods have become technology and convenience. We NEED human contact! The rollout of Covid and the internet has profoundly changed how younger generations interact. Entire lives are lived on devices with no human contact whatsoever. My brother even has “ virtual” therapy. What a joke! Shakes someone’s hand, give someone a hug. We are in this together. And pray. Prayer changes things. Thank you, Mickey. And Tessa Fights Robots has an excellent article about this ancient battle.
🙏
My prayers never changed anything that couldn't be explained otherwise. And those times praying seemed to work were trivial (finding lost items) and a tiny minority.
I find hope only in the openness of the future and hence the possibility that it will get brighter.
Blaming the devil for the results of humans' bad behavior is very...human.
God created the perfect place. Eden became no more after free will was utilized. Adam and Eve knew what was right. God told them what not to do and they walked in the cool of the day with Him. They knew. They chose disobedience. Then evil came into the world. The world is saved by Jesus Christ from our inner nature to disobey God. The only other perfect place is Heaven. You must choose Jesus to get into Heaven. He said so Himself. The only question left is who do you say Jesus is?
Amen.
When transgressors (insert any dirty politician, malignant narcissist, post Covid rioter/looter/lawbreaker who is given a pass, corporate or schoolyard bully, and be sure to include the Turkish government) do not ask for forgiveness, repent or atone, but on the contrary enjoy the fruits of their heinous crimes — and from lack of punishment become emboldened to repeat their crimes, granting forgiveness is the last thing victims should do. Forgiveness is overrated when misused and can even put the forgiver in peril.
Forgiveness should not imply docility. Forgiveness is in the heart. I can forgive but fight for what’s right at the same time. God forgave us our sins (that is disobeying the Creator) through the blood of Jesus Christ thus granting us eternal life with Him if we believe in what he tells us in the Bible about Jesus, God’s Son. If we don’t forgive in our hearts, God will not forgive us (Matthew).
When Jesus drove the money changers from the temple, he was not practicing forgiveness. If forgiveness is what is expected in every instance, many practicing Christians will be turned away from the gates of Heaven.
I agree, that was the action of a just God. God hates sin but loves sinners. Jesus is perfect so he doesn’t harbor unforgiveness. On the cross he said forgive them for they know not what they do. Resentment hurts the holder way more than the giver.
Forgiveness is everything. It makes life wonderful and free. It doesn’t make you vulnerable it actually makes you strong.
To each his own. Many do not hold malice in their hearts or commit crimes because they have been wronged but feel very empowered in distancing themselves from the source of their miseries. One may say “God go with the transgressors,” but choose to have nothing more to do with that entiry and close the chapter.
Forgiveness is in my opinion extremely personal; you don’t need to tell someone they’re forgiven you forgive in your heart. It may take a daily practise of years or a lifetime; life is filled with the pain of being wronged and disappointed by others; but ultimately forgiveness is about freeing yourself from heaviness that causes more misery. I don’t think anyone else needs to know about it, least of all the people you are forgiving. The main benefactor is you.
That aspect is in place for many people. It is misleading and damaging for institutions, invested actors and the like to put victimizer and victim in a room together and preach reconciliation as if both are equally guilty. And that is what we are seeing around the world under the guise of conflict resolution and restorative justice. Many people have grown to accept that the only justice they may ever see is in the afterlife.
Forgiveness really has nothing to do with perpetrators. It has everything to do with the injured party.
Angels rejoice when a lost soul is redeemed. God supplies the tools (such as someone's wise counsel and firgiveness), for a soul to convert, but ultimately the sinner has to make that choice
What injured parties do to comfort themselves is their personal choice. From a political standpoint, malignant powers rely on and even demand forgiveness to justify their acts of impunity. This mindful demoralization will not advance the Christian forgiveness movement.
Really lovely, Mickie, yes a struggle…commanded to love, it’s not really free is it? both good and bad options for us to choose~~~I for years was in a pers Ch pry group and monthly read pages and pages of courage under horrific struggles. And so stunning, they choose faithfulness. Shot at bus stops, blown up in Sunday Easter service. The last member of the Boka Haram attack, Leah has had her second baby because she won’t give up her faith to leave the terrorist compound. ~~~ now I think of the group of teens who kicked and beat on the three marines on a California beach this weekend, Memorial Day!! What parents allow such arrogance and brattiness, words fail. Let’s give them a couple of weeks carrying bedpans and holding hands of wounded service members, blinded, without a leg or arm, in a few military trauma centers. Fighting to allow them the freedom to be a jerk. The days of “thank you ma’am,” “Let me help you with that, sir”…..?? hard to stomach, in 15? years these folks will be joining the management? teams, or in line, free to bash in your head for mixed up order at take out……Forget that you don’t know how to use an apostrophe……amen and amen
You so eloquently stated all that is in my heart. These past three years have brought me back to my faith as I see nothing else to solve humanity’s dilemma but a return to Jesus’ Way. I believe the light of his truth must be rekindled in the hearts of each of us who have been awakened. He tells us we are the salt of the earth and through His Way, with ears to hear and eyes to see, we will create heaven on earth. The Lord’s Prayer is our daily tool to walk with Him and be his disciples so that the world will “know Him”. I discovered and now use the six petals of the rose, as designed in the center of the labyrinth of Chartre Cathedral, as my daily walk with him. This was built by Jesus’ and Mary’s earliest followers in France, after she escaped Jerusalem following his ascension. The politics of that time were as tenuous as they are today; our struggle is nothing new. The Lord’s Prayer a perfect meditation for hearing and seeing and receiving His guidance. Remember, salt is not sweet, but powerful and has many uses. We are not naive in believing in God, but, rather, powerful, like salt. We are not being passive in prayer, but calling on the greatest force of the universe. And if we work together, bound by God’s powerful promises, we are string like salt, and our collective, ever-intensifying light will expose the darkness of evil. Then together, with the indefensible strength of the creator of this world, we can send evil back to its pit of hell. Obviously, God can do this anytime he wants, but he wants us to rejoin him in our collective divinity as he intended for us to be with him. Yet he gives us the free will to choose to reign with him or continue to suffer. It’s that simple. I know it’s our only hope; just look at the state of humanity. We, alone as mere humans, think we’re smart enough, but the evidence of our world today, proves the contrary. We do not have the power, in ourselves alone, to change this course. Once we open our hearts and the eyes and ears of others we will all realize it’s the only Way to accomplish heaven on earth. It is truly our salvation. Thank you Mickey!
🙏😭🙏
What if billions eventually followed some version of the roadmap laid out in the Sermon on the Mount?
this is not just Christian, this is the golden rule and is preached by all wise men and women all over. Unfortunately, many people want others to follow it, but not themselves. They want to convert everyone to their own version of the truth, and I think that is where it all goes wrong. What I consider true religion is between the One and My Self, and no one enters that sacred place. But many don't see it that way... and want to convert me to a stone building where God probably never enters.
🙏
Thanks for the reminder, Mickey! I got sober just a day over nine years ago, and I had to deprogram from a lot of evangelical indoctrination. One of the best ways that I did that was reading Emmitt Fox’s Sermon on the Mount. It helped me to understand what was actually being taught in that profound section of the Bible. For anyone else struggling with understanding the message, I can’t recommend that book enough.
Thank you for the suggestion, EK! I did not know of that book until now.
You’re very welcome, and I hope you enjoy it as much as I did! Really appreciate your voice and what you’re doing!
🙏
A priest at a parish I belonged to some years ago tackled “Why would God allow this?”
God didn’t allow it. We did. And we know the one who convinced us to do it.
Treat others as you would have them treat you.
Know when evil is creeping into your heart.
Be kind.
🙏🙏🙏🙏
Well said! It’s a daily choice to cultivate the change we wish to see in the world.
🙏